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[0:22] ..." to talk about that Matthew Alexander major Alexander and his group of interrogators. Had a lot to do that very much to do with -- bringing down of one of the most deadly and brutal terrorists in Iraq and we'll talk about that right now with Matthew Alexander. The book how to break a terrorist the US interrogators to use brains not brutality to take on the -- man in Iraq that alias man being Abu Musab -- our car"...
[2:34] ..." has to do it really shipbuilding and think things -- or you interrogators. As you can do -- while correction I wasn't a special forces and special operations."...
[3:26] ..." us. -- curry was. I guess the head man. In Iraq for al-Qaeda and responsible. Not only for the murder on tape of -- and others but responsible for. On the blowing up of the"...
[5:10] ..." branded the army of them that was the first time outside the United States. Many of them as part of it ever talked to -- And or multiple. But they were extremely open court -- learning"...
[5:41] ..." Red cardigan -- Matthew Alexander major Alexander and his group of interrogators. Did indeed break down through the terrorist cell to ultimately send special forces -- gets a -- and -- its its interesting."...
[7:13] ..." to us in this wonderful book. Many of the folks who join al-Qaeda joining me not because they just had the sense of hatred for Israel and America is want to kill everyone is not"...
[8:20] ..." see this very often there are passages blacked out for -- against national security reasons."...
[9:13] ..." I I told my interrogators. Rely on the things that make it good American could I think -- will make it good interrogator. In intellect cultural understanding."...
[11:39] ..." that tremendously large amount of people involved of the process not to interrogators that analysts -- support people. And soldiers -- got permission. Whoever -- telephone by the way. But it's -- good it was"...
[12:37] ..." to later I think it's very important information. Totally incumbent on the interrogators. Can you be able to filter out bad information. Not to make any assumptions about people."...
[14:14] ..." to reflect on this. A want to ask you a two part question one. How the situation appears today as it did. Compared to say 2006 when lawless action is going on obviously the violence is"...
[15:32] ..." techniques they can be incorporated that we need to teach our young interrogators. And tackle. I hope the first thing and it has the first thing that happens that would outlaw torture conflict -- government."...
[16:31] ..." the subtitled how to break a terrorist as the title. The US interrogators used brain's not brutality to take on the at least man in Iraq it's a story of it's an exciting story registries"...
[0:00]" Well this past weekend I spent some time reading as -- often do and -- book that really floored me it's amazing story one of many amazing stories about the war on terror and what's going on overseas and it just brings to bear to -- the -- amount of respect I have for people in the field doing the really tough work when it comes to the war on -- one such man and his team is here to talk about that Matthew Alexander major Alexander and his group of interrogators. Had a lot to do that very much to do with -- bringing down of one of the most deadly and brutal terrorists in Iraq and we'll talk about that right now with Matthew Alexander. The book how to break a terrorist the US interrogators to use brains not brutality to take on the -- man in Iraq that alias man being Abu Musab -- our car major Alexander Matthew thank you so much for coming in today a top command congratulations on the book. Thank you very much and thanks for having me cash. I tell you that more and more when we read about the operation -- that -- on in in a field of battle like this it's so complicated and there are so many levels. But even for somebody inside the business sort of weaving through the levels of bureaucracy it seems frustrating and I know you were talking often in the book about the frustration you felt we'll get into what you did in the process of interrogation."
[1:15]" Yes it you know they interrogation career field really has been kind of split. And and it actually split sometime recently because the deal backcourt -- that we were using fairly try to -- they're based on relationship building. Report building respect. An intellect and it's sometime in the recent past -- I would argue after September 11. We -- many that's when it's out the door instead of resorting. But that there were based on fear control. We used torture at times but he certainly had used. Used to be. Oh we got -- that. With a whole new wave of -- for allocated because they're able to use that the fact that we tortured prisoners. Very effective recruitment tool."
[2:01]" You have served for many many years in special forces and more the air force it's a -- also been on the criminal side of things here and domestically and have learned about these techniques and this is not something that you're just spouting this is based on and on hard evidence in terms of interrogation in the success rate correct."
[2:19]" That's correct spent seven years to come on the -- for the airport and several members of my team has helped it obtain. And that we brought with big picnic that would. I used to wear tried and true from chrome investigations with had which has to do it really shipbuilding and think things -- or you interrogators. As you can do -- while correction I wasn't a special forces and special operations."
[2:43]" And our -- commissioners are involved in special a special forces of the guys are doing and actually. Okay act on some of the information you get."
[2:50]" Get -- they have the hardest really in my opinion because he's the man -- carry out this had particular capture. Based on intelligence that we. Develop and that's why again it's so important that we use to -- that it's possible because so putting -- totaled reflects."
[3:07]" Thank you very much for that clarification talking with Matthew Alexander's written a book about the interrogation of prisoners. In Iraq and basically. What led to the discovery of the hiding place of balls a curry who will more what are we paint that picture again for people who. Certainly knows the story and that's most of us. -- curry was. I guess the head man. In Iraq for al-Qaeda and responsible. Not only for the murder on tape of -- and others but responsible for. On the blowing up of the dome and that caused just terrific unrest."
[3:44]" Is -- idea historic civil war in Iraq and he did that by targeting. He has civilians put this side bomber. And so he obviously had the blood of quake. 1000 without people on anti also bombed hotels and Jordan -- Buick has core. That he was spying quite if you bombings that -- ideology would want. You know extremists have and I column in the book the creature -- because. That that's what his message -- but what I found that there was quite revealing that record. Was that a large majority opinion Iraqis could join dedicated didn't believe reality. Actually were fairly moderate anarchy. So we have a lot of common ground and then taking. A patient."
[4:32]" You when you're gators as they're referred to in the book on guys and gals -- have to sit down with these people regularly almost daily and and just discuss whatever you can discuss to get information on the you talk about the people on the team and and it's made up of a variety of folks from all over the country a variety of backgrounds and including those with different styles of interrogation and three US seemed a bit of a challenge to win them over to your point of view I was a true."
[4:59]" Yes there is the members of my interrogation teams were extremely open minded about learning new technique and about. Trying something new -- These are people who some of them were branded the army of them that was the first time outside the United States. Many of them as part of it ever talked to -- And or multiple. But they were extremely open court -- learning ideas and a couple members of -- in had a lot of experience that they care -- members but there was also. What I call the old guard. Who are other. Interrogated and other teams. That we're being tough government -- and not that I wish peace but it's based -- control."
[5:41]" Red cardigan -- Matthew Alexander major Alexander and his group of interrogators. Did indeed break down through the terrorist cell to ultimately send special forces -- gets a -- and -- its its interesting. The idea of being shall we say friendly and and neighborly and want to say -- suggest -- you guys work or going out bowling and I haven't Beers of these guys but you needed to get into their psyche and to make them trust -- get them to trust you by no means are you suggesting that these are good guys you suggesting this is the way to succeed."
[6:14]" It's cracked and you know public that we interrogated we have watched on video is. Going to -- horrific act. And then we would have agreement interrogation bit different. But -- we found where we actually in the middle they were struck a bad situation. And it made bad decisions that they want but apparently you know that people."
[6:37]" Family enters -- little -- you'd discuss with them. Things that that they would obviously respond to you would hope family for instance."
[6:44]" Definitely the strong motivate your you know the army -- and an approach called love of family. Quick TT he can empathize with family relations with trying to -- that they incorporate. And you know with the air culture can't -- it. Such a strong both debaters. You know people live -- would tout your contact with stratified sampling. This obviously is something that works very well it's."
[7:08]" Again it's such a complicated story over there and as you discover and relate to us in this wonderful book. Many of the folks who join al-Qaeda joining me not because they just had the sense of hatred for Israel and America is want to kill everyone is not Muslim but they're just afraid it's Austin like the old crime busting their -- to to go up against the stronger game."
[7:29]" this is the so who that improve I would perpetrated that and direct the fact that. Sitting Iraqis -- that -- peeled back away from located -- quickly and so effectively. And goes to show that they didn't believe had a -- from the beginning they could join data he did not -- And that was my experience -- tell that story of a book of the first minute period up Ali. Could Anthony mom had -- for protection. And he had been but think suicide -- the first thing you're protected me was without at a -- quick cut your throat. The within three days he was providing commissioned a partner incorporated where it can get rejected the Carolina."
[8:10]" Indeed this is Jordan should mention of course that the name Matthew Alexander that. We're referring to is a pseudonym the author is is unidentified year -- his real name and also in the book and I you don't see this very often there are passages blacked out for -- against national security reasons."
[8:25]" That's correct amid the bulk of the department defense purview. That they -- yet I had to file -- lawsuit. And then when they repeated they blacked out 93 items actually it was originally. I used my -- BT's appealed those and I want on eighty OpenId creek. -- and and it's still appealing cover the other -- yet are still a few items in the book that are blacked out."
[8:50]" Obviously. EU would disagree. With look any kind of physical torturous interrogation technique but -- look at what you do and how you do it it really is a mind game and a battle of wits and if you're smart enough and in control on what these guys and they can fall along with view then you might get a and you don't need to resort to torture."
[9:13]" I I told my interrogators. Rely on the things that make it good American could I think -- will make it good interrogator. In intellect cultural understanding. Compassion and respect. Talent. And that's how my team achieve success that we don't need to doubt our own intellect and ability to in the floor. We're putting spark. Q Al with our opponent."
[9:36]" What what there'd be in the nightmare scenario up. A place for let's say physical torture and a minute -- present you with the years the conundrum that is often presented there's a bomb and it's ticking and it's set to go -- and destroy a city one man we know without question has the information refuses to give it up we have two hours before the bomb goes -- is there any justification at that point forward for doing more than just talking."
[10:00]" And from Reno had for two reasons first of if you take nine people -- an area of -- the -- Interrogator music harsher torture methods camp may -- one -- capitulate to be confirmation that he used torture but I guarantee if he's other methods based on it like to get more than -- to capitulate he can't because they're better. You'd think -- of method of interrogation. The other point is that -- that they can they can -- they can take realized that they can't take what we stand for. And when we give up what America stands for the principles that we're founded upon that we become my enemy. It says they want. So for me I think cattle. I don't care what the ticking time -- partners and we were in the ticking time bombs there by the way direct everyday we. Certainly captured -- people who knew where ticking time bombs were happening. We is that tortured and America."
[10:51]" about to your experience and I respect your view on that because you've been right there in the -- should know the story of -- I don't give anything away although we know the outcome and it's a good one for our -- the story involves an amazing. Series of interrogations. With some people who were not considered by some to be that important -- figured -- that one guy was we won't give -- all the -- but that the pathway to Zarqawi who was living where you -- living in the same same zone but you just couldn't find -- how long a process -- when you guys -- with -- mission to the actual mission of -- and how -- did --"
[11:25]" I have to point out that we could take him for years who. We actually almost killed and 2004. He ran a checkpoint and they were -- communication that allowed advocated get away. So that this could. The current passport cook and chasing him for years and that tremendously large amount of people involved of the process not to interrogators that analysts -- support people. And soldiers -- got permission. Whoever -- telephone by the way. But it's -- good it was a long process but the with a chain of events that started. With a young interrogator named poppy it's got a cremation. Let us. Down with one came but the point perhaps that the country that it's a carpet that would probably five he five or six key interrogations. And that and then change it yet."
[12:10]" Which brings to question the bear and that is this enemy that many people assumed its first would be simply ragtag bunch of extremists who just strap bombs to the jurists and easy to spot are not at all that easy to spot and root out this is our very crafty enemy in their working on their home soil."
[12:28]" Expected. I think in the book I talk about how. You bring people had from the people interrogated and you'd think they're fairly and accurately try to later I think it's very important information. Totally incumbent on the interrogators. Can you be able to filter out bad information. Not to make any assumptions about people."
[12:48]" As I said earlier and again Matthews is a pseudonym but as I said earlier manager my respect grows daily for people left to do the tough work that is involved in situations like this and one of the things that really struck me there's a scene in the in the book which happened of course you guys were privy to -- videos that even. Keeping YouTube didn't get. The horrible horrible videos of torture. 22 then have to go back in there and sit down opposite one of these people who might have been partly responsible has to be just enormously pressure full."
[13:22]" It is then described in the book how I felt after watching videos -- this hatred to step form that you want to take over year. And now. How hard it is to resist that to do what's right into thing you know like I can watch what the enemy -- become enemy. And you know also want to point out have a chance here to take and we -- quite keep soldiers in pursuit of -- And while try to go out conduct trade missions trying to capture animated. And those people people realize that. -- you because they were trying to use eight this effort to stop this message of hate and -- that Erica was preaching."
[14:01]" Amazing heroism in the field and particularly when you know that. These guys have gone in and an ambush has incurred they just didn't have a chance but they went anyway -- finally as you look over the scene now and you've had a chance to reflect on this. A want to ask you a two part question one. How the situation appears today as it did. Compared to say 2006 when lawless action is going on obviously the violence is way down it seems as though we've made great strides and secondly going forward the new administration taking shape in a couple weeks of really in the policy has been obviously no torture. Waterboarding is is a done deal. What do you -- further next say six months to year or further along."
[14:40]" The first summer the question of Iraq invaded a lot safer now what because we finally have reached out put in and that brought demanded. There are security arrangement -- and temperature -- I think is an excellent job doing that -- we picked -- a lot earlier. Would contain -- a lot of lives. Politically though that about the pilot -- crash wreck. I think we need to be very concerned about the fact that. We have a government power with. Definite links Tehran and that that -- from me because. Iron on 9/11. I know that as a member of the armed forces working and terrorism that major backer of -- attacks against Americans with a -- And so. That concerned me as far as the very next administration I think we need to institutionalize. What might ignite learn directly about the techniques that work. There's a lot of our investigative techniques they can be incorporated that we need to teach our young interrogators. And tackle. I hope the first thing and it has the first thing that happens that would outlaw torture conflict -- government."
[15:43]" And I would also say people may be thinking hey the guy wrote a book about how to break it -- one -- the terrorist get a hold this book is -- define and created will they learn these techniques I don't think they will -- body guess that."
[15:55]" I of people here turn on the TV any night you'll watch they never cops they're killing criminal investigative interrogation techniques. That work and yet every Dade detective. -- do their -- to get confessions Catholic I did. You know allocated Nino event sixteen looked likening it has the skinny and cute it's got but they can't couple. The same way with interrogation --"
[16:17]" Florida of this book is by mark -- by the way whom we've talked to about his several the works including. The black hawk down book and other things. -- brilliant guy and he wrote a beautiful forward to -- a book let me just give the title and the subtitled how to break a terrorist as the title. The US interrogators used brain's not brutality to take on the at least man in Iraq it's a story of it's an exciting story registries like a novel but -- story of guys and gals who were using their smarts thank you so much major and good luck -- not only here but anywhere you do you take your your story."
[16:50]" Okay thank you very much for an."
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